Life & Culture

Blurring democracy: the Orthodox vision of respecting women

Comments (12)
  1. Vash says:

    I must say that when orthodox men are yelling at women for not being modest enough, or other thing of such sort, it’s not because they do not respect women (in their eyes).
    It’s because they fear that looking at women may corrupt their belief in god, and they want to reduce any element that may contribute to that.
    Of course in the end it still means that they’re degrading women, and they also need to ask themselves a quiestion: how strong is the belief that is easily disrupted by any rough leg that pickes out of the skirt.

    The problem that you describe can’t go away. Many centuries ago, men believed that women are not equal to them. Unfortunately, the orthodox still have beliefs that belong in the dark ages.

  2. Michelle says:

    Vash —

    Please do some research before you make assertions supported only by personal views and prejudices. Believe me, these concerns are not at all new, and while this comment section is not the place to discuss them in depth, any Orthodox Rabbi would be happy to explain the whole picture. These issues are frequently taken completely out of context, and an understanding of Torah beliefs in general is necessary before making claims about Orthodox practices. I highly encourage you to look further before you condemn us to the Dark Ages.

    A proud Orthodox Jewish woman

  3. Vash says:

    I know that not 100% are like that.

    But what am i suppose to think when on Yom Kipur they wait for cars and even ambulances to pass by in order to throw stones at them, or curse and spit on women that sat down in a seat that belongs to men (why should there even be a seat like that?), or against gay marrige (or even don’t acknowlegde their right to love each other) or just smash iphones on ceremonies because iphone is blasphemy (well, actually I agree with that).
    This doesn’t look like somthing that belongs to the 21th century, and i’m sure it’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    Make assertions? This is what I see infront of me. And the problem is, that the ones who are not like that don’t say anything against it.

    You just said Im wrong, not example as to why.

    Vash. a proud secular.

  4. Thank you so much for commenting on the article!
    I would like to point out that by referring Vash to an Orthodox Rabbi to explain Torah beliefs you are saying that a male should give a complete explanation. In a system that allows only men to make laws and decisions, without legitimately giving women the right to change those laws, the system is obviously favoring males.

  5. Michelle says:

    Thank you for pointing that out. To rephrase, please refer to an knowledgeable Orthodox scholar (male or female) who is careful with halachah. The only reason why I originally put “Rabbi” is because a Rabbi must be a learned individual, and not every Orthodox person may have the depth of knowledge and understanding needed to discuss sensitive issues. (We are only human, too!)

  6. Deborah says:

    “But what am i suppose to think when on Yom Kipur they wait for cars and even ambulances to pass by in order to throw stones at them”

    Since that is completely forbidden in the halacha they claim to be “defending” (i.e. the halacha of shabbos/yom kippur, not even mentioning the halacha of “being a decent human being”), it is likely the people doing that are not really charedis (i.e. ultra-orothodox religious) anyway.

    or curse and spit on women that sat down in a seat that belongs to men (why should there even be a seat like that?),

    there are unfortunately a lot of mentally disturbed people in Israel. The fact that some of them dress in charedi clothing does not mean that they have any sort of validity or backing from a single reputable charedi authority or in any way represent the mainline charedi position. crazy people are crazy. If you want to discuss whether the isolation and pressure of particularly insular charedi communities leads to insufficient psychological treatment for these people….

    or against gay marrige (or even don’t acknowlegde their right to love each other)

    that one is true, but is also true of islam and many sects of christianity. that many peoiple have a religious belief that homosexuality is wrong is not exactly breaking news.

    or just smash iphones on ceremonies because iphone is blasphemy (well, actually I agree with that).

    the iphone isn’t “blasphemy”, but it is a gateway to gambling and pornography etc addictions. the charedi reaction to this challenge might occasionally be a bit extreme but then their entire phiolosphy is of insulation and better safe than sorry.

  7. Deborah says:

    in response to
    And the problem is, that the ones who are not like that don’t say anything against it.

    First of all, that’s not true. The fact that you haven’t heard about the people who have spoken out against it is not proof. You probable don’t read charedi publications anyway. The week after the horrible incident of some crazy person spitting on a girl in beit shemesh, charedi papers ran articles about how disgusting and appalling it was and how no decent charedi behaves like that.

    in addition, many major rabbis in the charedi community have made clear statements or excommunications etc against people who for example harass women, throw stones on shabbos, etc.

    Maybe it’s true that not enough people always speak up. There are various reasons for that.
    1. Human nature. Plenty of people don’t have courage to speak up. Especially in a situation like someone crazy– if you try to stop him he’ll probably turn on you. Cowardice? Yes. Indicative of community-wide acceptance of the crazy person’s actions? No.
    2. Jadedness. As mentioned above, people do speak out against it. And nothing changes. At some point people can give up and think it makes no difference because nothing will change anyway so why bother.

    But yes. It is a problem.
    Unfortunately every community always finds it easier to speak out against the problems in other communities than in their own. (and every community has serious problems)

  8. St says:

    hi, its really great to be a thinking person, and its great that there are forums for everyone to say there opinions. That in mind, here is a response the article concerning Blurring Democracy.
    In regard to the disappointing experience you seemed to have had by the Western Wall, that’s really unfortunate. I almost always have my least inspiring prayers there, but I can not blame it on the surroundings. It is not because I am wearing long sleeves and tights in the heat, because other girls who come in the heat wearing more than me are praying with ferver. I see people wearing less praying ferver. It is not because of my clothing. It can not blame it on the lack of space, because who would I ask to leave, all the other women deserve to be there as much as I do, and the space (or lack there of) is ours to share. I once thought “why don’t we take some space from the men so there will be more space” until my brother made me aware that there are even more me there, and they don’t have space to spare.
    My prayer at the Kotel is weak because of me, not because of any other factors. Some people thrive on those spiritual highs that get me nowhere. I am not saying that it is entirely your fault for having a disappointing prayer. But if your prayer was not uplifting, before blaming the circumstances, try looking inward. There is no dress code for the Kotel, and while some people feel pressured to dress in a more conservative style, there is no group of enforcers who will expel you from the area. I know this because I have seen people, or gone with friends, wearing skinny jeans and tank tops at the Western Wall. And there prayers were as strong as strong, if not stronger than mine. In regard to the issue of space, women don’t have less space because women are looked down upon, it is simply because more men come to pray, so men need the larger space. There is no Torah law to squish women, this is much more practical and just basic geometry. And finally, praying silently is not meant to be oppressive. It is meant to make the prayers more personal and allow a person to express herself with no concerns of who will hear her deepest wishes to G-d. And beyond that, it would be disruptive to everyone else there to start praying out loud. Occasionally I feel the need to shout to G-d, or express myself audibly. In these instances, instead of going somewhere where I know there will be other people, like the Western Wall, I find a secluded area where I can be alone with G-d and be free to say, or scream, what ever I want.
    I understand your feelings of disappointment, it is so frustrating to have expectations for how spiritually uplifting a certain experience should be like and then have the actual event pale in comparison. But instead of faulting the “ultra-Orthodox” community for your bad experience, maybe you should try being proactive, and taking responsibility for your own spirituality.

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  10. Idell says:

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  11. Miriam says:

    Thanks so much! If you enjoyed this, I also wrote another article “Eco-Pollution: Israel’s Silent Threat” and more to come!